War, Geopolitics and History
January 19, 2008
Noam Chomsky, professor, linguistics, MIT
Robert Fisk, correspondent, The Independent
Journalist Robert Fisk of the UK-based publication, The Independent, recounts his experiences traveling around the world and living in the Middle East, Fisk speaks on history and geopolitics in the Middle East. His focus is on the problems with journalism in the United States, which include an over-reliance on what government authorities say and the common mode of reporting “from Baghdad” but entirely within the confines of a hotel room. Using newspaper articles and speeches from politicians, Fisk illustrates the lack of concern for Iraqis as human beings. Fisk’s talk also looks at the Armenian genocide, which was downplayed in Western media. After the talk, Fisk fields questions ranging from the rumors of civil war in Iraq to the situation in Lebanon.
Video
Audio
January 22, 2008 at 9:37 pm
This was a riveting talk by Mr Bob(Fisk)in which his vocation as a journalist to try to document and explain the human condition shines eloquently.
Fisk’s message to up and coming reporters seems clear:give priority to holding the powerful to account;over gaining access to them.
All too often these days,and this something with which this talk could have dealt more,reporters are either cyphers for official propaganda or outright intelligence service assets.
In other words,the mainstream reporting on which most people base their construction of world events is pretty much a parallel universe of fiction quite autonomous of what actually transpires in the real world.
Dahr Jamal recently spoke of how when Bush and Blair in September 2002 launched their propaganda blitz in the run-up to the Iraq war they cited an IAEA report that stated that Iraq was only six months away from creating a nuclear weapon as evidence of the urgent need for a preemptive strike.
Not one journalist noticed that the report from which our blood(read oil)thirsty leaders quoted did not in fact exist!
It went entirely unnoticed by those we pay to know that these leaders were conducting a discourse utterly unconnected to actual states of affairs.Fiction n’est pas!
Typical! We pay them to tell us the truth,keep up with the facts and help us make informed decisions and they allow our leaders to initiate a war that has claimed the lives of 1m+ Iraqis,caused millions more to flee,and traumatized the region.
Most pointed for me is Fisk’s understanding of the unbelievable restraint muslims generally show to the West despite the current and historic arrogance and duplicity to which they have been subject.
This muslim tolerance is apparent to anyone who has travelled at all in the Middle East,where to this day and despite all that has gone before,by and large strangers are embraced by the indigenous inhabitants as friends they haven’t met yet.
When Fisk launched The Great War For Civilisation,a couple of years back,he was still in the same state of ignorance as Chomsky on 9/11.Noam has,like the Left generally and the anti-war movement in particular,lost a lot of credibility from his failure to challenge the indecently threadbare official account.
Happily,I believe that since this talk was recorded,Fisk too has begun to see the light and expressed cynicism re-the hogshite that passes for what is supposed to have happened that day.
Who was it said you can’t all the people all the time……?
January 23, 2008 at 8:38 pm
“Happily,I believe that since this talk was recorded,Fisk too has begun to see the light and expressed cynicism re-the hogshite that passes for what is supposed to have happened that day.”
Freeborn, would you mind elaborating please on what it is you are specifically referring to with regards to these events? What is it that we are failing to understand or challenge regarding the prevailing narrative? I feel that I am either abysmally ignorant on the subject or just not buying into the various conspiracy theories.
January 23, 2008 at 8:43 pm
This is what Fisk had to say on 9/11
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisk-even-i-question-the-truth-about-911-462904.html
January 24, 2008 at 1:35 pm
deanne
If you are buying into the official account of 9/11- you are buying into the biggest conspiracy theory of the lot.
If,after having done some research on the net,which is absolutely awash with 9/11 material wherein architects,chemists,demolition experts,physicists all by and large confirm that the official account is complete hogshite,-you still believe that 19 Saudi hijackers led by Osama’s Al Ciada brought down the Twin Towers and WT7-then….Amen.
Short of going to all that trouble-just watch the footage of the Towers collapsing.
It’s a demolition facilitated by the placing of explosives on all the floors.It’s as plain as day.
Google 9/11 Truth and the world(that’s the real one as opposed to the parallel fictional universe created by the corporate media)is your oyster!
I just had oysters for lunch today which probably means I’m enjoying a better diet than Osama Bin who while on a kidney machine in a cave built for him by the CIA(confirmed in Fisk’s account of his visit to the old warrior)directed the attack on New York.
And all because he was jealous of our Western way of life…….yea?
They’ll be building runways for pigs next.And that would be typical of the US they just don’t understand the insult this would cause.They can’t seem to do anything right in the muslim world right now!
January 24, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Thank you Dave!
“If,after having done some research on the net,which is absolutely awash with 9/11 material wherein architects,chemists,demolition experts,physicists all by and large confirm that the official account is complete hogshite,-you still believe that 19 Saudi hijackers led by Osama’s Al Ciada brought down the Twin Towers and WT7-then….Amen.”
Freeborn, I’m sure there are thousands of sites on the net dedicated to unravelling the “truth” about 9/11 but admittedly, I’ve never bothered to browse any of them. As odd as it might seem to you, Bin Laden’s praise for the hideous atrocity and subsequent video confession was evidence enough for me to conclude that al-Qa’ida were the perpertrators of the attack.
January 24, 2008 at 6:37 pm
deanne
The thousands of 9/11 sites started the very next day on 10/9/01!
You’ve not had time to browse yet?
I think you will be hard pushed to find evidence that Bin Laden confessed to the atrocity though he obviously applauded it.
Most of us have noticed that the Bin Laden videos are fabricated by US intelligence,especially the last one,much like the ridiculous final letter to his family written by Mohammed Atta that Fisk scoffed at in The Indie.
Don’t wait another seven years-read(don’t just browse)Dave’s link.
Browsing the internet is probably not quite the same as actually studying something.The latter requires some commitment and hunger to get to the truth.
This of course also takes time that most of us simply don’t have.
You seem not to be aware that Al Qaida and the CIA are one and the same.Hence the spelling “Al Ciada”.
The alliance between imperialists and hardline Islamists like the Wahabbis and Salafis goes back over a century when the Muslim Brotherhood was encouraged in Egypt by British elites.
Secular and modernizing Arab countries have always been vulnerable to Islamist subversion abetted by Western elites.
The period when this alliance between Western imperialists and their Islamist proxies was particularly active was in Afghanistan at the end of the 1970s the US,following British intelligence strategists’ advice encouraged the adoption by the US of hardline Islamist resistance militias like Bin Laden’s to destabilize the pro-Soviet regime,and then to entice the Soviets to intervene and get dragged into an unwinnable war against their heavily armed Saudi-funded,Pakistani ISI-sponsored proxies.
Simultaneously the same alliance was at work in Iran to engineer an Islamist revolution to oust the Shah and replace him with their favourite Brotherhood bogeyman:Ayatollah Khomeini thereby reversing the modernizing White Revolution and pursuit of nuclear energy initiated by the Shah.
Latterly the same Al Ciada proxies were involved in the US/NATO led break-up of Yugoslavia.Funded still by the Saudi and Kuwaiti royal families and such like sources,their forces committed atrocities,and carried out ethnic cleansing to seal their territories in much the same way as their Serb adversaries.
The official narrative would have us believe it was Milosevic and Serb nationalists who instigated the civil wars in Yugoslavia.US/German encouragement of the aspiring secessionist states like Bosnia,Croatia and Kosovo and their role in deliberately provoking civil war and the break-up of Yugoslavia has been conveniently air-brushed.
The demonization of Milosevic on alleged human rights abuses in Kosovo and the Hague kangaroo court set up at the behest of Madeline Albright allowed the real war criminals to hide their complicity in causing the conflict in the first place,their collusion with Islamist and KLA narco-terrorists to destabilize Milosevic,and their own NATO bombing atrocities against mainly muslim civilians in Kosovo.
In the surreal world created by such a narrative the US can now claim without any sense of irony to have “helped” muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo.
It requires some willing suspension of disbelief to ignore this history as a means to understand the world now,but official histories like official explanations at the time the events occur will always be a manufactured version not the truth and in the case of of 9/11 not even an approximation of it.
January 24, 2008 at 10:45 pm
The trouble with conspiracy theories , whose justification is to “prove” that 9/11 was an inside job is that they give the imperialists an almost devine mythical can-never -do wrong-status.(Azamm Tamimis thesis as expoused in “Hamas the early chapters).
They are also show lazy intellectualism ( Al-Ciada ( i ask you indeed).
If the US were clever enough to pull off the twin towers job from the inside, then they would have been clever enough to occupy and eliminate the situation in Iraq without things going pear-shaped.
But the very worst thing conspiracy theorists do is to fail to give due credit to the very resistance fighters that are making the neo-con dream into a nightmare by attempting to imply that the headlong fleeing from Iraq is some sort of well thought out plan by the “masters” and not a victory for those who resist them.
These conspiracies seem to be perennially after the unholy grail of explaining the failure of imperialism without giving Muslims and indigenious non-european nations credit.In fact going even further in suggesting that Islam is in league with Imperialists to defeat some secular and modern Arab Governments or a Shahian -White???-Modern-Revolution that ,like Narnia, dont and have never existed.
It is a very sad day when the left are reduced to look for the Shah as their Saladin.
January 25, 2008 at 7:26 am
“The thousands of 9/11 sites started the very next day on 10/9/01! You’ve not had time to browse yet?”
Er… I guess at the time, I must have bypassed the proliferation of superstitious, weirdo, conspirarcy theorist nutters for more reputable sources of information such as Professor Chomsky.
“Don’t wait another seven years-read(don’t just browse)Dave’s link. Browsing the internet is probably not quite the same as actually studying something.The latter requires some commitment and hunger to get to the truth.”
LOL… I did read Dave’s link. Incredulously, twice even! Mr Fisk’s questions regarding the Atta letter were interesting but hardly conclusive proof of CIA collusion.
Freeborn, initially I did have an earnest interest in your views but essentially you are suggesting that the CIA had pre-existing knowledge of the attack, allowed it to happen or in some way helped to orchestrate it? As such, I think that your views are probably not dissimiliar to those held by the paranoid, scchizophrenic element of the Left that are already in wide circulation. e.g 9/11 was an ‘inside job’, explosives were planted in the towers, a missile hit the Pentagon, thousands of NY Jews had prior knowledge of the attacks, Bush’s docileness during the goat story telling incident as evidence of collusion (LOL) and so on and so forth.. Therefore, I don’t see any reason to continue this discussion as these bizarre theories, amongst others, have been vigourously examined and discredited elsewhere by people that tend to apply, unlike others, at least a modicum of logic.
January 25, 2008 at 7:45 am
“But the very worst thing conspiracy theorists do is to fail to give due credit to the very resistance fighters that are making the neo-con dream into a nightmare by attempting to imply that the headlong fleeing from Iraq is some sort of well thought out plan by the “masters” and not a victory for those who resist them.”
Good point.
January 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Therefore, I don’t see any reason to continue this discussion as these bizarre theories, amongst others, have been vigourously examined and discredited elsewhere by people that tend to apply, unlike others, at least a modicum of logic.
In actuality it is a simple matter to crash the active server page, strip the exception error file reference and access the video when google you tube etc denys access.
Take a moment deanne to view these videos and apply your own modcum of logic to what you see.
The videos
wtc7 symetrical collapse
Larry Silverstein exemplifying why the decision to pull wtc7. To pull a building is the lexicon used by contolled demolition experts to force a building collapse in its own footprint.
BBC coverage of the 911 wtc7 collapse documenting collusion and foreknowledge of the collapse, through Ap wire services when in fact wtc7 is still standing. This has become very troubling to the British people the video was found by a CAnadian citizen.He posted to google video and was deleted 23 hours later however the footage was displayed for that time period and went rampant on the world wide web
Therefore, I don’t see any reason to continue this discussion as these bizarre theories, amongst others, have been vigourously examined and discredited elsewhere by people that tend to apply, unlike others, at least a modicum of logic.
copy paste this url into your address bar
http://www3.telus.net/pmjordan/jjj.html
January 25, 2008 at 3:33 pm
There is no point arguing with conspiracy theorists.
The more cynical one gets the more they consider you as a duped victim.Plus they get a kick out of “someone with logic” trying to have a logical argument with them as their bizarre conspiracy theories get a legitimacy they dont deserve and the oxygen they derive with “someone with logic” taking time to reason with gives them false credibility that only encourages them.
Lets just suffice that if the main plank of the argument being proffered as to a grand conspiracy that the 9/11 was an inside job is that a video was pulled from google 23 hours after it appeared.If that is the very best thread they can come up with to prove their theses its time for “someone with logic” to go elsewhere in order to make the world a better place.
Umberto Eco in his brilliant “Foucalts Pendulum” deals with conspiracy theories and conpiracy theorists ( in this case a debunking of the De Vinci codists ( though he wrote it before Dan Brown come on the scene)).
His simple theses is that “the simple explanation is always best” and turning ( in this case) neo-cons into devine beings that can bring events into play by decree is to endow them with more sense and power than they have.
The other end game of conspiracy theorists is to rid themselves of all responsibility in doing their bit for a better world by making out a narritive that the forces ranged against them ( though very powerful)are so in control of every event that takes place that to even make a start in taking them on is pointless.In this particular case a Jordanian blogger would find it more comforting to pontificate on the de-listing of a google video than to do the neccessary work that has to be done to get rid of a pro-US useless unelected King.
January 25, 2008 at 5:14 pm
The more cynical one gets the more they consider you as a duped victim.Plus they get a kick out of “someone with logic” trying to have a logical argument
My intent is not to debate the videos they are in the public record and costitute a factual record of the day.
There are millions of duplicates in all forms of digital archiving. This is the wtc7 story consider what happenned or consider the 911 commission it makes no difference, the past cannot be undone, at least with the technology available today.
January 25, 2008 at 6:14 pm
deanne
I reckon only an American could believe the CIA were so saintly they could not possibly have anything to with 9/11!
I agree with you on one point though.That’s the one you made about there being no point in continuing the discussion.
Methinks we reached an intellectual dead-end.
Amen.
P.S.I hope you and the guy who calls himself after a character in children’s fiction will live happily ever after!
January 25, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I reckon only an American could believe the CIA were so saintly they could not possibly have anything to with 9/11!
“Saintly” CIA? Ha! it is to laugh. Give that the vast majority of Australian’s are today celebrating ‘Australia day’ whilst I am lamenting the scourge of Nationalism. I hardly think that if I were American, I’d be suddenly transformed into some jingoistic idiot incapable of reason, but thanks for that shallow assumption.
“P.S.I hope you and the guy who calls himself after a character in children’s fiction will live happily ever after!”
Thank you, and I hope that you and Dodi Al Fayed’s father will be as equally as happy together.
January 25, 2008 at 10:04 pm
In what sense am I a duped victim, who is victimizing me
I don’t go to conspiracy websites these are google, you tube videos that interest me because they present anomalies that I can subject to my own analysis, when Larry Silverstein says we decided to pull the building by the application of Ocamms Razor I conclude foreknowledge a building is not wired for demolition in 2 or 3 hours it takes weeks of preparation. When the BBC reports at time frame 2:11 in the video and displays at the bottom of the screen The Solomon Brothers wtc7 has collapsed and time frame analysis confirms collapse occurs 23 minutes later when any one familiar with the New York city skyline easily sees wtc7 to the left of the reporters shoulder it implies collusion,I.m not saying BBC is in collusion I am implying that wire service knew of imminent collapse there are videos of firemen being interviewed that are perplexed we had the fire stomped this is not aircraft fuel this is furnishings burning. Of course the wtc complex was hit by airplanes. My question is why the 911 commission does not release its adendums explaining this its been 7 years at the conclusion of their enquiry they said future information was forthcomiing.Im afraid popular mechanics media release is not the correct forum.
January 25, 2008 at 10:43 pm
So we smoked out an Aussie!
I thought the level of intellectual discussion had taken a nosedive over the last couple of days!
Given the country’s domination until recently by John Howard,a stooge of the Cheney cabal in Washington,whose father like the Australian Liberal party had fascist roots,the Murdoch press,and its Anglophile financial and political establishment-no wonder you think the official account of 9/11 is true!
Bet you believe JFK was killed by a lone gunman,Princess Diana died in car accident,Dr Kelly committed suicide,John Pilger is a communist,and Kylie should now enter politics!
How could anyone who has so obviously succumbed to the global propaganda of an unelected billionaire with a militant agenda and key politicians in the palm of his hand believe otherwise?
One,whose Empire is expanding as we speak.It gobbles up competitors and is at this minute trying to block free speech on the internet.
That’s your very own Rupert Murdoch whose promotion of wars has led to the deaths,disfigurement,and displacement of millions across Afghanistan,Iraq and Lebanon.
The cassus belli for all this carnage was 9/11 and 9/11 was synthetic terror just like 7/7 here.Fox News and the rest of the Murdoch Empire peddled the fiction of an external attack to further geostrategic plans that had been in the pipeline since the end of the Cold War.
It will probably take Australians a little while to
adjust to the fact that the fictions that evidently sustain them are in fact like a lot of other made-up stuff:hogshite.
January 25, 2008 at 10:44 pm
In this particular case a Jordanian blogger would find it more comforting to pontificate on the de-listing of a google video than to do the neccessary work that has to be done to get rid of a pro-US useless unelected King.
The de-listing of the google video is not a problem, due to P2P bit torrent streams out of England. The kids
were alerted to the video and immediately stopped downloading music and started streamed packet sharing a bot then took over and made multiple posts to video caches with differnt file names and 2 to 3 frames deleted to avoid check sum error detection.
Archive.net immediately went down and stayed down when it resumed all 911 files had been converted from their native format to flash video to avoid time frame confirmation. Thee BBC immediately lost their 911 coverage assuredly the most important event in modern history with duplicate backup and ventilated temperature control vaults they explained it in the media as a cock up british slang for an inexplicable error.
As for King Abdullah II, life in Jordan is good, we are a rich country,we are not concerned with our King we are concerned with the plight of our Palestinian brothers any suggestions you have on disentagling ourselves from US influence would be appreciated we realize we are deeply ensnared.
January 25, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I rest my case.
P.S. Outing a Jordanian Shah supporter (posing as a lefty) tops outing a logical mature quality Aussie.
January 25, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Paul
Your questions re-9/11 are acute and penetrating but they’re probably wasted on Rumpelstiltskin and deanne downunder.
If you wonder why the 9/11 investigation was,like the Warren Commission not really an investigation at all,read about the Dickstein/McCormick committee of 1934 that was set up to “investigate” the coup plot sometimes called the Wall St. plot against FDR in 1934.
The military-industrial complex we speak of today was able to get away with that attempt to hi-jack the administration just like the Cheney cabal in 2001.
An investigative reporter called John Spivak,who worked on the New Masses paper interviewed Committee leaders and uncovered their complicity in a cover-up of a coup in which America’s leading miltary hero at the time:Smedley Butler refused to take part and blew the gaffe.Even today most Americans still know nothing of these events.
The piece is made up of two articles with the headline Wall Street’s Fascist Conspiracy dated 29th January 1934 and is on the net in full.
Be warned it’s another “conspiracy theory”!
January 26, 2008 at 12:10 am
Be calm Freedom you are delving too deeply into machinations of man turn your gaze inward touch the inner fire awaken the Freedom that is your birthright.
rumple_stiltskin24 be at peace you have outed no one do a Who IS dns lookup on my website don”t bother Alberta Canada
January 26, 2008 at 12:37 am
I was just surfing and happenned upon this thread,my original intent was honey bee ccd the disappearance of the honey bees that is now taking place. This thread at its outset seemed reasonable and well paced I seem to have disturbed the hive, after my post it essentially turned into Ad Hominem attacks against each other. I realize that the loss of life and destruction that the US experienced and is experiencing and love of country is what drives these emotions. It was fun though some of the stuff had me ROFL you are all well meaning intelligent people it was nice meeting you.
January 26, 2008 at 12:45 am
And happy peace to you as well.
I dont believe in re-incarnation , but if there was you would definitely come back as a Rocket…..only kidding now!!
January 26, 2008 at 9:00 am
Paul
I hope you and your bees will be very happy together just like Rumpelstiltsin and deanne!
It was fun while it lasted.
See you in the apiary-now there’s a hive of conspiracies there for you to post about…….
January 26, 2008 at 9:08 am
“So we smoked out an Aussie!”
Wow! Ingenious deductive reasoning Sherlock!
Paul, and RS I’m sorry that I haven’t given your posts proper consideration yet. FB’s arrogant, condescending, presumptuous, racist caricatures and intellectual hayseed sermonising was distracting my attention. Freeborn?? More like stillborn!
Freeborn, as to why you consider yourself to be the sole repository of intelligence and wisdom, I know not, but I sincerely hope that you will endeavour to gain some degree of humility in your exchanges with others so as not to destroy every opportunity for fruitful discussion.
As for myself, I come here to learn about issues which are meaningful to me, from someone whose knowledge is extensive. Unfortunately, my education was extremely poor and as such, I do struggle to understand complex geopolitical issues. That is an extremely unfortunate thing, but what is also genuinely upsetting to me, is that when I try to increase my understanding, people like you often wield your intellect to intimidate, humiliate and chop down any sincere inquiry, or expression by dazzling us with your intellectual prowess, and expecting immediate conformity to your views. Congratulations on making me feel like I have the IQ equivalency of a mushroom! Now I ask you, how freakin’ constructive was that?
RS. thank you, for the kind words.
I’ll slide back into obscurity now.
all the best. xx
January 26, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Now now you kids play nice.
I<ve already begun Freeborn
1. Comment by Sarah H. (OpenMind) — January 23,2008 @ 7:12PM
I wonder if “Killer Bees” were among the bees that have died.
2. Comment by n n. (Apitherapy News) — January 24,2008 @ 4:25AM
For information on the medicinal use of bee products, visist http://www.apitherapynews.com
3. Comment by Paul J. (phraedus) — January 24,2008 @ 7:25AM
I wonder if “Killer Bees” were among the bees that have died.
I don’t believe so, Africanized honey bees
will swarm to exploit new habitat, they have a longer evolutionary history than European bees and hence are better adapted to parasitic and viral contingencies. They will not pollinate a monoculture crop but will seek and find diversified food resources.In the prescence of any predation even if only conceived ie noise vibration,ant badger bear, human, they will attack and they will attack relentlessly en masse and they will pursue even though the danger has passed
I then take this post and spam multiple newspapers ie I read this what are they talking about is something wrong with the bees etc. Once I have garnered their attention I slam em
January 26, 2008 at 2:45 pm
You sure picked a turkey there freeborn.
I suppose its a vast improvement on seeing the Shah as the great “white” lefty hope for a fairytale New Saladin.
I hope you enjoy your Honey Turkey sandwhiches…..
January 26, 2008 at 3:32 pm
rumple stiltskin Says:
Prepare yourself RS if you consider bee extinction to be just another among the many of species extintion you are sorely mistaken. The relentless use of Bt GMO modified maize by the USofAmerica has contaminated the entire worlds source of this food resource it has introduce into the pollinating insects food change an unknown to its genome neurotoxin. Yes the bee will succumb four years after its demise there will be nothing. 15 out of the 24 ecological habitats that provide sustenance and living space to all animal species, are in jeopardy due to multinational and corporate love of money.If you think technology will save you you are wrong, if you think God will save you you are wrong, if you think the neo cabal fascism of your governmentwill save you you are wrong. You live on a planet that is the only island of life in the observable universe, extensibly the universe.
May your omniscient christian God have dMErcy on your everlasting soul. You have no idea what divinity is you have no comprehension of faith, hope,charity, benevolence,understanding categorically none. Divinity rejects you.
January 26, 2008 at 3:49 pm
This dialogue came to an intellectual dead-end a long time ago.
If I was an Aussie sheila enjoying midsummer in January I’d be outside with the barbie crowd not gibbering on about how badly educated I was to complete strangers?
In 2004 a Zogby poll found that over half of New Yorkers believed the 9/11 was an inside job.
Are they all “conspiracy theorists” or what?
The people you and rumpelstiltskin seem to take exception to are those who take the trouble to do some research and challenge official histories.
If you want to live with the fairy tales you were told when you were kids then Amen…
It’s abundantly evident by now that you have an enormous chip on your shoulder re-your lack of education.
What the hell are you doing on a site that’s named after an insurgent intellectual you probably haven’t heard of?
Go back to Disneyland while the rest od us get on with our lives in the real world.
The real world I’m afraid is full of conspiracies…
and a bit complicated.
You stick with a pre-constructed narrative.Life could be so much easier that way.
For all of us!
January 26, 2008 at 4:17 pm
It sadly is true Deanne
Video duration is 7:31 minutes so when you can find the time.
The videos
2 research engineers explain the electric car and the inadequcies of the hydrogen fuel cell.
A short clip of G.W Bush epounding hydrogen as the worlds salvation.
http://www3.telus.net/pmjordan/ev1.htm
January 26, 2008 at 4:35 pm
These two videos were obtained from AltVista yahoos search engine, problem is they throw an 404 error however the embed code is still present. I took the embed code and uploaded to my site the video loads I then capture the stream with firefox down load helper.
The Larry Silverstein video was obtained from a Christian based site problem, active server page error, I took the asp url and reloaded the page threw an exeption error I referrenced the video file and downloaded again the stream was captured in the same manner
January 26, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Addendum my mind is a little agitated by my last post so a quick blurp to rid myself of it.
downloaded again the stream was captured in the same manner
Incorrect the serving page was crashed I had determined the videos location on the server. Firefox asked open or save yes save sorry about this I hate it when my mind loops on trivialities.
January 26, 2008 at 9:10 pm
If the US were clever enough to pull off the twin towers job from the inside, then they would have been clever enough to occupy and eliminate the situation in Iraq without things going pear-shaped.
Cleverness is not what is needed with an armed insurgency popularly backed by the people as so aptly demonstrated in Vietnam, it takes barbariuty destroy the electrical grid destroy the water supply induce famine pestilence disease man plays with these machinations endlessly.
It is not clever it is chain of military command divert air defence, want to see a video why bother the only one who has watched is freedom and he has seen them before.where is the video from the Pentagon camera directly in front of the crash scene all we see is the footage from gas station.Where were the anti aircraft missile defence systems.60 70 80 people against two two are actually flying the aircraft. OMG hes got a box cutter this is the end my m16 is in baggage.
January 27, 2008 at 2:29 am
Freeborn,
I didn’t know there was some unwritten rule regarding how much personal information I’m allowed to divulge here.
Anyway, what I am less interested in is the conjecture and speculations after the crime. What I am more interested in is verifiable facts particularly those that relate to CIA complicity prior to the attack, as well as why you are critical of Professor Chomsky’s analysis concerning the perpetrators and their motives.
January 27, 2008 at 4:39 am
“The people you and rumpelstiltskin seem to take exception to are those who take the trouble to do some research and challenge official histories.”
Not at all. As I said before, that is why I come here, to learn from someone whose indefatigable courage and erudition vastly exceeds my own.
January 27, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Ha courage it is to laugh
Beieve not what you see, believe not what you read, believe not what I say unless the whisper from your heart tells you it is so. Paraphrasing the Buddha
On a lighter note a video
bush-joke warning you may not get it.
http://www3.telus.net/pmjordan/bush_joke.html
My quotes page Buddha,Confucus,Socrates
http://www3.telus.net/pmjordan/silence/
by removing silence you access the full site nothing there really its old and was my effort to write a web page.
My email address jordanp at telus.net drop me a line well find someting to discuss perhaps in the vien of What is truth phraedus,must someone tell you what is good timeus,what is beauty phraedus oh my dear son come here let me exlain.
January 27, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I’m Australian too and I happen to agree with Freeborn re the 9/11 conspiracy theory (the USraeli’s government’s version). As if the falling of the towers and the other one nearby that collapsed without being hit could defy the laws of physics. The only real question is whether the MIH or LIH scenarios is the best explanation: made it happen or (had foreknowlege) and let it happen. I’m inclined towards the latter after reading David Ray Griffin, whom I recommend. Its not so hard to cultivate a Big Lie when you own the corporate media which creates consensus reality. And scores of people can be in on it, just like the Manhatten Project. Even if one or two speak up, who is going to believe them? When you create trauma, its easier to disrupt critical faculties.
January 27, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Correction: that would be inclined towards the Made It Happen scenario.
January 27, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Welcome Aboard Aussie3
We are approaching consensus 3yea 1 undecided 1 nay
Thesis antithesis resolving to objective truth discovered thousands of years ago by the Greeks
rumple_stiltskin24 Says:
January 26, 2008 at 12:45 am
And happy peace to you as well.
I dont believe in re-incarnation , but if there was you would definitely come back as a Rocket…..only kidding now
No I will not be reincarnating nor any of you. This cycle is done.
Let me partially explain the procedure.
There are seven heads of betrayal within you.
The negative emotion when you feel fear apprehension anxiety if the danger is not imminent and present you are remembering the past and projecting to the future,analyze the emotion determine if Self is alerting you or if you are daydreaming.
Delighting in the senses, do not become excessively exhuberant with your joy your pocession nor your abundance a shallow trap most fall into.
If you experience precognition,manifestation of esoteric mysticim,any psychic phenomenon do not become fixated, remain in the moment remain mindful.
January 27, 2008 at 6:43 pm
rumple_stiltskin24 Says:
January 25, 2008 at 11:07 pm
I rest my case.
P.S. Outing a Jordanian Shah supporter (posing as a lefty) tops outing a logical mature quality Aussie.
Not a head the tongue of the fourth head,ego which cannot be done or expressed in words.Inner contemplation without the use of the inner dialogue (somewhat) a difficult concept to express it is known through your own experience.
RS. thank you, for the kind words.
I’ll slide back into obscurity now.
all the best. xx
The saddest of all denial of Self cut this head and kick it to the gutter.
Not at all. As I said before, that is why I come here, to learn from someone whose indefatigable courage and erudition vastly exceeds my own.
Again she denies self,no she slays ego. Take a break breathe in breathe out collect yourself.
January 27, 2008 at 7:21 pm
This cutting the tonge severing the head plucking the eye is cryptic allegory. It is as your mother told you watch what you say, mind what you think (thoughts become ations)
Essentially four forms of consciousness
Outer contemplation:no inner contemplation
No outer contemplation:inner contemplation
Outer contemplation:inner contemplation
neither outer nor inner contemplation
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html
Yes Rumple I,m a buddhist
January 27, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Paul, are you inebriated? As I really have no other explanation as to why you seem to delight in derision after obviously having read the information I’m seeking in my last post.
Aussie3 what the hell are you doing here? Shouldn’t you be at a bbq or something?
January 27, 2008 at 8:42 pm
“The only real question is whether the MIH or LIH scenarios is the best explanation: made it happen or (had foreknowlege) and let it happen. I’m inclined towards the latter after reading David Ray Griffin, whom I recommend.”
Aussie3, thank you for the recommendation but since I’m not really capable of plucking the book out of thin air at this present time, could you please elaborate on any evidence regarding foreknowledge of the event?
January 27, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Derision
A word or phrase is pejorative if it implies contempt or disapproval. The adjective pejorative is synonymous with derogatory and dyslogistic
the tongue of the fourth head
Aussie3 what the hell are you doing here? Shouldn’t you be at a bbq or something?
and then signalling with the happy face is derisive may I turn the cheek and ask if you are inebriated
January 27, 2008 at 9:01 pm
David Ray Griffin
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Western Philosophy
20th-century philosophy
Name
David Ray Griffin
Birth
1939
School/tradition
Theology
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David Ray Griffin (born 1939) is a retired professor of philosophy of religion and theology and a proponent of 9/11 conspiracy theories that implicate members of the United States government in the attacks.[1] Along with John B. Cobb, Jr. he is considered a foundational thinker in Process theology.
Contents [hide]
1 Background
2 September 11, 2001 attack theories
3 Affiliations
4 References
5 Books
6 See also
7 External links
[edit] Background
David Ray Griffin is a longtime resident of Santa Barbara, California, was a full-time academic from 1973 until April 2004. He is currently a co-director of the Center for Process Studies, and one of the foremost contemporary exponents of process theology, founded on the process philosophies of Alfred North Whitehead and Charles Hartshorne. He is also a leading exponent of theories questioning the Bush Administration’s account of the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Griffin grew up in a small town in Oregon, where he was an active participant in his Disciples of Christ church. After deciding to become a minister, Griffin entered Northwest Christian College, but became disenchanted with the conservative-fundamentalist theology that was taught there. While getting his master’s degree in counseling from the University of Oregon, Griffin attended a lecture series delivered by Paul Tillich at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California. At this time, Griffin made his decision to focus on philosophical theology. He eventually attended the Claremont Graduate University, where Griffin received his Ph.D. in 1970.
As a student in Claremont, Griffin was initially interested in Eastern religions, particularly Vedanta. However, he started to become a process theologian while attending John B. Cobb’s seminar on Whitehead’s philosophy. According to Griffin, process theology, as presented by Cobb, “provided a way between the old supernaturalism, according to which God miraculously interrupted the normal causal processes now and then, and a view according to which God is something like a cosmic hydraulic jack, exerting the same pressure always and everywhere (which described rather aptly the position to which I had come)”, (Primordial Truth and Postmodern Theology). While applying Whitehead’s thought to the traditional theological subjects of christology and theodicy, Griffin found that process theology also provided a sound basis for addressing contemporary social and ecological issues.
After teaching theology and Eastern religions at the University of Dayton, Griffin came to appreciate the distinctively postmodern aspects of Whitehead’s thought. In particular, Griffin found Whitehead’s nonsensationist epistemology and panexperientialist ontology immensely helpful in addressing the major problems of modern philosophy, including the problems of mind-body interaction, the interaction between free and determined things, the emergence of experience from nonexperiencing matter, and the emergence of time in the evolutionary process. In 1973, Griffin returned to Claremont to establish, with Cobb, the Center for Process Studies.
While on research leave in 1980-81 at Cambridge University and Berkeley, the contrast between modernity and postmodernity became central to his work. Many of Griffin’s writings are devoted to developing postmodern proposals for overcoming the conflicts between religion and modern science. Griffin came to believe that much of the tension between religion and science was not only the result of reactionary supernaturalism, but also the mechanistic worldview associated with the rise of modern science in the seventeenth century. In 1983, Griffin started the Center for a Postmodern World in Santa Barbara, and became editor of the SUNY Series in Constructive Postmodern Philosophy between 1987 and 2004.
[edit] September 11, 2001 attack theories
Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, David Ray Griffin moved his focus from questions of philosophy and religion to ones of politics and history, specifically “American expansionism and imperialism”. He intended to write a book on the subject, presenting 9/11 in terms of “blowback” for aggressive United States foreign policies of the 20th century:
“Until the spring of 2003, I had not looked at any of the evidence. I was vaguely aware there were people, at least on the internet, who were offering evidence against the official account of 9/11… I knew the US government had ‘fabricated’ evidence to go to war several times before. Neverless… I did not take this possibility seriously… I was so confident that they must be wrong.” [2]
After reading the work of Paul Thompson and Nafeez Ahmed, he became convinced that there was a prima facie case for the contention that there must have been complicity from individuals within the United States, and joined the 9/11 Truth Movement in calling for an extensive investigation from the United States media, Congress and the 9/11 Commission. At this time, he set about writing his first book on the subject, which he called The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11 (2004).[3]
Part One of the book looks at the events of 9/11, discussing each flight in turn and also the behaviour of President Bush and his Secret Service protection. Part Two examines 9/11 in a wider context, in the form of four “disturbing questions”. David Ray Griffin discussed this book and the claims within it in an interview with Nick Welsh, reported under the headline Thinking Unthinkable Thoughts: Theologian Charges White House Complicity in 9/11 Attack[4].
Critics of Griffin’s thesis, such as Chip Berlet, say that many of the claims in the book are refutable.[5] Griffin has rejected these criticisms [6] and debated Berlet.[7] Other reviewers like Mike Williams claim to have found various problems.[8]
Griffin’s second book on the subject was a direct critique of the 9/11 Commission Report, called The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions (2005).[9] Griffin’s article The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-page Lie summarises this book, presenting 115 instances of either ommissions or distortions of evidence he claims are in the report, stating that “the entire Report is constructed in support of one big lie: that the official story about 9/11 is true.”[10]
In his next book, Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action (2006), he summarizes some of what he believes is evidence for government complicity and reflects on its implications for Christians. The Presbyterian Publishing Corporation, publishers of the book, noted that Griffin is a distinguished theologian, and praised the book’s religious content, but said, “The board believes the conspiracy theory is spurious and based on questionable research.”[11][12]
In 2006, Griffin, along with Peter Dale Scott, edited 9/11 and the American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, a collection of essays including Steven Jones’ paper Why Indeed Did The World Trade Center Towers Collapse?.[13] His most recent work Debunking 9/11 Debunking (2007) looks at the way mainstream media such as Popular Mechanics have sought to debunk the alternative 9/11 theories and the tactics he claims they employ to persuade the reader that they have done so.[14]
David Ray Griffin has delivered several lectures that are popular within the 9/11 Truth Movement, and has given interviews on alternative media shows such as The Alex Jones Show.[15] A lecture entitled 9/11 and American Empire: How should religious people respond?, delivered on April 18 2005 at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, was aired by C-SPAN.[16] At the end of one of his lectures, 9/11: The Myth and the Reality, Griffin was asked why a theologian would take such an interest in 9/11, to which he replied: “If 9/11 is not a religious issue, then I don’t know what is.”[17]
In a review published in the magazine The Nation, former CIA agent Robert Baer dismissed the gist of Griffin’s writings as one in a long line of conspiracy theories about national tragedies, but stated that the Bush administration had created a climate of secrecy and mistrust that helped generate such explanations.[18] However, he later changed his mind, saying:
“Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation–not one based on ‘confession’ extracted by torture–we will never know what happened on 9/11. David Griffin will never let this go until we get the truth.”[19]
[edit] Affiliations
Center for Process Studies
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice
[edit] References
^ The Disbelievers – 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists Are Building Their Case Against the Government From Ground Zero. Washington Post.
^ Griffin, David Ray; Richard Falk (2004). The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11, 13. ISBN 1566565529. Retrieved on 2007-07-26.
^ Griffin, David Ray; Richard Falk. The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11. ISBN 1566565529. Retrieved on 2007-07-26.
^ [1]
^ [2]
^ [3]
^ [4]
^ [5][6]
^ Griffin, David (2004). The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions. Olive Branch Press. ISBN 1566565847.
^ David Ray Griffin’s “The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-page Lie”.
^ Smith, Peter (2006). Presbyterian publishing board criticizes own book. courier-journal.com. The Courier-Journal. Retrieved on 2006-11-28.
^ Kane, Jason (2006). PPC backs away from 9/11 conspiracy book. Presbyterian News Service. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Retrieved on 2006-11-28.
^ Griffin, David Ray (2006). 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, Vol. 1. Olive Branch Press. ISBN 1566566592.
^ Griffin, David Ray (2007). Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory.. Olive Branch Press. ISBN 1566566865.
^ [7]
^ [8]
^ “9/11: The Myth and the Reality” Lecture
^ “Dangerous Liaisons,” September 27, 2004)
^ [9]
[edit] Books
Process Theology: An Introductory Exposition, with John B. Cobb, Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1976, ISBN 0-664-24743-1
God, Power, and Evil: A Process Theodicy, 1991
Parapsychology, Philosophy, and Spirituality: A Postmodern Exploration, SUNY Press, 1997, ISBN 0-791-43315-3
The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9-11, Olive Branch Press, 2004, ISBN 1-566-56552-9
The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, Olive Branch Press, 2004, ISBN 1-566-56584-7
Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action, Westminster John Knox Press, 2006, ISBN 0-664-23117-9
The American Empire and the Commonwealth of God: A Political, Economic, Religious Statement, with John B. Cobb, Richard A. Falk and Catherine Keller, Westminster John Knox Press, 2006, ISBN 0-664-23009-1
9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, Vol. 1, editor, with Peter Dale Scott, Olive Branch Press, 2006, ISBN 1-566-56659-2
Debunking 9/11 Debunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory, Arris Books, 2007, ISBN 1-566-56686-X
[edit] See also
7 World Trade Center
9/11 Truth Movement
Collapse of the World Trade Center
Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center
Jim Hoffman
Panentheism
Presbyterian Publishing Corporation
September 11, 2001 attacks
Steven E. Jones
War games in progress on September 11, 2001
[edit] External links
Center for process studies
Presbyterian Church publishes 9/11 conspiracy theory
David Ray Griffin Curriculum Vitae
Bibliography of Published Articles
OUT LOUD: AN INSIDE JOB?
Unquestioned Answers
Independent.com – ‘Thinking Unthinkable Thoughts: Theologian Charges White House Complicity in 9/11 Attack’, Nick Welsh (April 1, 2005)
SeptemberEleventh.org – ‘The 9/11 Commission Report: A 571-Page Lie, David Ray Griffin, 9/11 Visibility Project (May 22, 2005)
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
Getting Agnostic About 9/11 – A society of nonbelievers questions the official version LATimes, Friday, August 26, 2005.
Review of The New Pearl Harbor, by Chip Berlet.
Response to Chip Berlet’s Review of The New Pearl Harbor,David Ray Griffin, May 1, 2004.
Claremont School of Theology retired faculty.
Bio at coast to coast am
David Ray Griffin’s testimony at the Congressional Black Caucus, Annual Legislative Conference 2005 (September 21-24, Washington Convention)
Is American Democracy Too Feeble To Deal With 9/11?
9/11 The Myth and the Reality: Dr. David Ray Griffin – Two speeches given by philosopher and theologist Dr. David Ray Griffin at The Commonwealth Club in San Francisco (4/3/06) and at The Grand Lake Theater in Oakland (3/30/06).
The Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth – Articles by Dr David Ray Griffin
[hide]v • d • e9/11 conspiracy theories
Major theories Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center
Notable proponents
and supporters Kevin Barrett · Robert M. Bowman · Andreas von Bülow · James H. Fetzer · David Ray Griffin · Sander Hicks · Jim Hoffman · Alex Jones · Steven E. Jones · Lyndon LaRouche · Thierry Meyssan · Rosie O’Donnell · William Rodriguez · Michael Ruppert · Peter Dale Scott · Charlie Sheen · Martin Sheen · Webster G. Tarpley · Barrie Zwicker
Groups 9/11 Truth Movement · 9/11 Citizens Watch
Films 911: In Plane Site · Loose Change · 9/11: Press for Truth
Books 9/11: The Big Lie · The CIA and September 11 · The New Pearl Harbor · The Terror Timeline · The War on Freedom
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ray_Griffin”
Categories: 1939 births | Living people | American philosophers | American political writers | American religious writers | Conspiracy theorists | Process theologians | University of Oregon alumni
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January 27, 2008 at 9:05 pm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-275577066688213413
Quote”Aussie3, thank you for the recommendation but since I’m not really capable of plucking the book out of thin air at this present time, could you please elaborate on any evidence regarding foreknowledge of the event?
January 27, 2008 at 9:07 pm
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No Distractions – No Deceptions
No Diversions – No Delusions
DAVID RAY GRIFFIN: ALMOST PERFECT ABOUT 9/11!
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Read the stories that TV news networks forget to report!
DAVID RAY GRIFFIN: ALMOST PERFECT ABOUT 9/11!
AN ANALYSIS BY TvNewsLIES.org
skullsgriffinskulls
We firmly believe that those people who fully believe the conclusions of the Kean Commission have never seen or heard any of the compelling evidence to the contrary. – These people never permit the complete picture to be painted for them. – They never allow themselves a chance to look at any of the information about 9/11 that has been revealed. They simply do not want to know that it exists.
David Ray Griffin, theologian, author and outspoken 9/11 researcher, recently did what nobody else has been able to do: gain television coverage to expose the very likely complicity by the Bush administration in the attacks of September 11th, 2001.
In his two latest books and during a powerful television presentation, David Griffin put together the most thorough analysis to date of the official Kean commission report on 9/11. It is not with this analysis that we find any fault whatsoever. On the contrary, Griffin’s examination provides a series of powerful and irrefutable arguments for probable and likely government complicity in the attacks.
Neither do we quarrel with the way in which Griffin’s classifies the American public’s view of the disaster. His description is quite accurate and undoubtedly reflects the cross section of public opinion. But we feel that Griffin’s categorization stops short of an even more important division within the country, one that might explain why tens of millions of Americans refuse to even consider the complicity of the Bush Administration in the most horrendous attack on this nation in its history.
In his analysis, Griffin brilliantly classifies public sentiment of the events of September 11th by breaking it down into 4 classifications. In summary, they are as follows:
1.
Those who believe that Al Qaeda outsmarted the global intelligence community and surprised the US with the attacks and the Bush administration is responding accordingly.
2.
Those who believe that Al Qaeda outsmarted the global intelligence community and surprised the US with the attacks and the Bush administration is taking political advantage of the situation.
3.
Those who believe that the Bush administration permitted the attacks to occur in order to take political advantage of the situation
4.
Those who believe that the Bush administration is complicit in the orchestration of the attacks in order to take political advantage of the situation. (Griffin accurately points out that the EVIDENCE tends to support this position.
While there is no disputing that these distinctions in public opinion exist, we feel there is an even more revealing classification. This belief is based solely on the personal experiences and observations of the editor of TvNewsLIES.org, but remains clearly discernible and consistent. It places the American public in only TWO major groups:
1.
Those who feel that the Bush administration, at the very least, had the opportunity to stop the attacks, and at the very most, orchestrated them.
2.
Those who abjectly refuse to objectively examine or listen to evidence that indicates complicity by the Bush administration.
We firmly believe that those people who fully believe the conclusions of the Kean Commission have never seen or heard any of the compelling evidence to the contrary.
The people in Group Two include those people who have “listened” to isolated bits of evidence, only to argue some obscure or irrelevant point without taking into account the complete context in which the evidence exists. These people never permit the complete picture to be painted for them. They refuse to sit quietly long enough to hear an explanation or an answer to a question that they asked. They dominate any dialogue about 9/11 with argumentative, irrelevant comments. Their reason for engaging in any discussion is simply to negate any significant information that might unravel their own weakly formulated beliefs.
They never allow themselves a chance to look at any of the information about 9/11 that has been revealed. They simply do not want to know that it exists.
skulls
Case in point: A few months ago, a visitor to the TvNewsLIES.org web site selected a DVD of In Plane Site as a premium for a donation. Within hours, I received an email from the donor asking to return the DVD because she had been told it “bashed Bush,” In response, I asked her to keep an open mind and view the video. If she still felt its purpose was to ‘bash Bush,” she could return the DVD and I would fully refund her donation. “Just watch it,” I added, “and then make up your mind.”
The DVD was returned to me, unopened. Enough said.
Internet forums also provide an arena for reinforcing the validity of the two-category concept. Here is where a pack mentality finds its home. Whenever an article or news item questioning the official account of 9/11 is presented for discussion, the responses inevitably fall into one of only two groups. In the first group are those who post comments adding their own information or asking for more details or further verification.
The second group inevitably fires a predictable stream of insults. Anyone who challenges the official version of 9/11 is a crackpot or a conspiracy theorist. The answers drip with sarcasm about UFO’s or Bigfoot, and often bring up some historic “atrocity” committed under the aegis of a Democratic administration, usually that of Bill Clinton. In some collective application of skewed logic, they regularly infer that Clinton’s involvement in Bosnia is somehow related to a discussion of 9/11.
They never, ever, respond to the evidence itself. They never, ever have an explanation or a rationale for the unexplained and highly suspicious inconsistencies in the Kean report. They would rather live with the lies than take the most cursory look at the facts.
Interestingly enough, many of the people who refuse to hear out any presentation of the events of 9/11 willingly sit though sermons in which there is not a shred of evidence to back up the religious messages of they hear. For some strange reason, so many of these people approach the words from their government with the same blind faith they place in their churches, and refuse to even LISTEN to anyone with the most credible evidence of their betrayal.
They will not look; they will not listen to anything that might upset their applecart of absolute faith in the Bush administration. They simply will not.
The paradox becomes evident: so many people who place their faith firmly in the hands of other religious leaders WILL NOT TO EVEN LISTEN to the evidence of a man of religion who appeals to the public on deeply moral and ethical grounds. Such is the nature of the second group.
David Ray Griffin is not a crackpot or a conspiracy theorist. He is a theologian with a highly impressive background in religious philosophy who is passionately pursuing the truth about 9/11. He is also a fearless American, concerned that the conclusions of the Kean Commission whitewash much of the conflicting evidence about the attacks that has been unearthed. His appeal is clearly directed at the religious community in this country, whose basic precepts of goodness, decency and truth should loudly demand an open inquiry into the evidence known today.
The hopeful fact remains that David Ray Griffin also represents those in the religious community who fit into the first category we described. There is a vast group of people who patiently hear the words of their spiritual leaders and then decide for themselves what to believe and what to let pass. They look at the evidence, they listen to the arguments. Having done that on one level, they cannot categorically accept the official version of the events of 9/11 as given. They might demand further inquiry, but they cannot possibly blind themselves to the unsettling evidence before them.
One final caveat: the mainstream media have been complicit and instrumental in promoting and furthering the atmosphere of ignorance in which Group Two exists. The news networks have refused to report any new evidence about 9/11 or to raise any questions about the discrepancies and fallacies in the Kean Report. They have taken no investigative stance whatsoever, and are guilty of covering up (by omission) every single bit of evidence as it has come forward.
Our media have been accepted by much of the general public as Organs of Truth, whose motives are not in question and whose integrity is beyond reproach. And, despite the fact that the corporate media have deceived us to the point of criminality, most people still flock to the pulpit of their television sets for their daily mass of deception.
There must be a way to enlighten the people who will not open their minds at all. We at TvNewsLIES.org are convinced that anyone who is willing to examine the evidence, and who is willing to hear what people such as David Ray Griffin have to say, will become a member of Group One. He or she may not be fully convinced, but the seeds of doubt will have been planted.
Perhaps, by some miracle, we can reach some of those who have chosen to close their eyes and their ears for so long. Perhaps, by the same miracle, some of these people will learn that there are other pulpits with more revealing sermons all around them. In fact, the messages from the independent research and alternative news communities may be the real salvation for a nation so in need of the truth.
To that end, TvNewsLIES.org challenges anyone who has not done so, to examine the available evidence about 9/11 and judge for him or herself whether or not the American people have been told the truth about 9/11.
If you LOOK and LISTEN with an open mind, and can formulate a substantive argument for dismissing everything you see and hear, let us know. We will give you a platform from which to convince those of us in Group One that we have no credible grounds for questioning the conclusions we have been handed.
We eagerly await your response.
* 9/11 – All the Proof You Need
* 9/11 Facts
*
WHY AMERICANS REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE 9/11 EVIDENCE!!! – The attacks of 9/11 were so unthinkable that most Americans would refuse to believe the complicity of their own government, even if presented with a mountain of evidence. – Very simply, it is possible to escape blame if you do something that nobody in the world believes you could do.
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January 27, 2008 at 9:19 pm
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wtc7&search=Search
January 27, 2008 at 10:44 pm
The word erudition came into Middle English from Latin. A scholar is erudite (Latin eruditus) when instruction and reading followed by digestion and contemplation have effaced all rudeness (”e- (ex-) + rudis”), that is to say smoothed away all raw, untrained incivility.
RS. thank you, for the kind words.
I’ll slide back into obscurity now.
all the best. xx
The saddest of all denial of Self cut this head and kick it to the gutter.
Not at all. As I said before, that is why I come here, to learn from someone whose indefatigable courage and erudition vastly exceeds my own.
Again she denies self,no she slays ego. Take a break breathe in breathe out collect yourself.
The problem with words is that they are so easily misunderstood. Life is sweet,enjoy Deanne
January 28, 2008 at 7:23 am
“Aussie3 what the hell are you doing here? Shouldn’t you be at a bbq or something?
and then signalling with the happy face is derisive may I turn the cheek and ask if you are inebriated”
Paul,
FOCUS! My comment to Aussie3 was a JOKE in reference to Freeborn’s earlier remark to me,
“If I was an Aussie sheila enjoying midsummer in January I’d be outside with the barbie crowd”.
Midy cares
Did you bother to read any of the information you provided about David Ray Griffin?
If so, could you please point out to me any specific verifiable facts which relate to CIA complicity prior to the attack? Geez, I’m almost wishing Freeborn would come back?
January 28, 2008 at 7:40 am
Mindy cares,
I didn’t look at the video links you provided because I am using a slow internet connection at the moment.
January 28, 2008 at 8:43 am
“The problem with words is that they are so easily misunderstood.”
What is difficult to understand about the information I’m requesting?
Guys, I know that I am ignorant here, but I don’t know what it is that I’m supposed to know that I don’t and I don’t know how to find out what I’m supposed to know that I don’t (Hope that wasn’t difficult to understand).
I’m just looking for facts in the months, weeks or days preceding the attack.. Perhaps, it would be easier if I just read one of these David Ray Griffin books.
“Life is sweet,enjoy”
That it is. You enjoy too.
January 28, 2008 at 2:10 pm
I recommend doing a web search on David Ray Griffin — put his name in inverted commas: “David Ray Griffin” for best search results. There’s a wealth of info freely available on the web, including video lectures at YouTube and Google vid.
January 28, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Thanks Aussie3.
I’ll heed S.K’s earlier warning to me now and opt out.
all the best
dea
March 13, 2008 at 4:53 pm
[...] talk. In the USA he gave another worth watching, introduced by Chomsky, which can be found here – War, Geopolitics and History. Posted by Dave Filed in Middle-East, Scotland, War Tags: 2005, audio, Glasgow, podcast, Robert [...]